50 Shades Trilogy

Taking this a little personally, Andy? What possible difference could it make to you?

It's not personal. I just don't think women are ever responsible for the acts of their rapists. The technical term for that is victim blaming. You lamented date rape then claimed women who like to sexually submit are encouraging rapists. From a debate point of view those two positions cancel each other out. I'm sorry I'm offending you personally by disagreeing with you. Part of the sexual revolution and women's rights movements were all about letting women do what they wanted in a safe and consensual setting. Rape is neither safe nor consensual. You can't have it both ways that we are allowed to whip men if we want but never allowed to be whipped ourselves. It's a sleight to all the women who want that and not equal rights. Equal rights mean accepting a whole lot of shit along with the good.

Oh, I wasn't taking it personally. You were the one yelling in CAPS! There are many levels of submission, most of which are harmless to others. And, in theory, I agree with what you said about equal rights. But, that doesn't untangle the legalities. If one woman willingly and consentually submits to being beaten, how do you stop the abusers....legally. Especially when "consent" is implied through marriage? It is hard NOT to look at women who submit to beatings being enablers for male abusers.

Duh....mr police officer.....yeah, I beat my wife up.....my next door neighbor beats his wife every night...he told me so....she loves it...she asks for it....I thought my wife might like it, too.....guess she didn't.....thank you, officer....won't happen again.....you bitch...just wait till I get through with you...call the cops on me....you're gonna think red ass....

Just sayin'......

FaeLadyFaye wrote:

I You can't have it both ways that we are allowed to whip men if we want but never allowed to be whipped ourselves. It's a sleight to all the women who want that and not equal rights. Equal rights mean accepting a whole lot of shit along with the good.

Oh, Fae. I just noticed your wording. Damn. It was personal. Sorry.

In CA the abuser would be arrested. I can't see any way shape or form that other people are ever responsible for an abusers actions. If your neighbor beat his dog who appeared to love him, you wouldn't think it was right to beat your own because you aren't an ass hole abuser.

I'm not sure, but I think in CA all rape is rape regardless of the status of the people involved. I don't think the situation you're describing is so much a problem of women submitting sexually to men, but a situation of really bad legislation that is aimed at suppressing women. Rape is always rape and never the woman's fault, regardless of who is involved.

Do I think in some states there could be thorny legal problems in BDSM situations? Yes. Does that mean for me that no women should ever submit as that means that otherwise reasonable men will get the impression that all women want that experience and go on a raping spree? No. Just in the same way I don't think all gay men will suddenly go on raping sprees because some gay men like to submit. I certainly think there are ass holes in the world and they will be ass holes regardless of the law.

I can understand your worry that men will hide under the concept of BDSM to cover their abusive actions. However, that shouldn't prevent women who want to engage in sexual activity in a safe environment from being able to do so. Preventing that would limit their freedoms to what others think is good for them.

Let me just add I'm not upset about anything and not taking this personally or as a sleight at all. Personal sexual choices are fraught with all kinds of moral issues and opinions. Human sexuality is confusing to say the least.

Fae---What you're saying isn't wrong. I am not disagreeing with you about a woman's right to seek and find her own sexuality. It should be a given. What I am saying is that there are legal issues to be considered and the objectivity of legislators and courts. It is a very slippery slope. And, by the way, it isn't just about rape. It is also about physical abuse that doesn't include sexual activity. Do I BLAME the women...personally....who enjoy being beaten? Well, obviously I don't understand it. I also don't understand why women continually return to abusive husbands/boyfriends. The difference, I know, is in the men. A responsible Dom knows when to quit....usually. If it was a constant there would be no need for things like safewords. There are no safewords for women in abusive situations, and you can bet your butt that abusers don't understand "no". But how do the courts know the difference? They can't. So many abused women eventually take some or all of the blame on themselves....."I shouldn't have made him mad"...."I shouldn't have said that". Well, they obviously don't know the rules of a D/s relationship. A good sub does what they are told, when they are told and can get "punished" for a raised eyebrow. So.....I guess a whole lot of abused women need lessons from practicing submissives on how to avoid getting the crap beat out of them. We will never figure it out through the legal system. So....the next step is.....School For Submissive Behaviour, or How To Avoid Pissing Off The Asshole In Your Life. Or, a public school for Doms. How To Make Your Woman Behave To Your Exact Standards! Oh.....wait. We already have those schools, don't we. I believe they are a part of virtually every major religion! Helpmates.....there you go. Set women back about 100 years. Yep....I still think I have issues. I don't like submissive women. Whether submissive by accident or intent. They are enablers until we reach a point in society where we are all truly equal. We aren't there yet, and in the meantime, women have to stand together. Or not.

I don't think a healthy BDSM relationship is one where the sub gets "beaten." I don't think any relationship where a sub can't express their opinion is healthy, be it a true BDSM relationship or not. Having ritualized behaviors and a chain of command in a relationship isn't an excuse to beat someone. I have not ever been involved in any BDSM activities and only know about them from books and TV. However, if anyone were in a relationship where they had lost their voice completely I would encourage them strongly to get the fuck out. If you can't use a safe word to get out of a scene, or find some other way to make your voice heard, it's no longer a relationship with a give and take and clearly unhealthy.

I agree, but they do exist. Here at home, our Mexican and Menonite population is pretty big. Those women have no voice in their LIVES! Period. Total male dominance. Many, not all, are abused on a regular basis. And they ARE beaten.......the "disciplining of wives". They aren't allowed to vote or have any voice in the raising of their children. One of the religious leaders of the Menonite community is the farm manager for one of my major customers. They are VERY well aware of what goes on and are trying to change things, but it's slow. John was OFFENDED almost beyond belief when our commissioner was let off on minor charges because it set a terrible example for his people. John has also told me that the "Americanizing" of their women is the main problem. Before they came to Texas the women.....John's words....minded their husbands better. All on purely religious grounds, women must submit to the will of their husbands in all things. It makes me want to pull my fuckin' hair out. We see it here every damn day. Men who were raised in Mexico are even worse. Oh, and our commissioner is just one generation removed from Mexico. More cultural with them than religious.

I do think there are many examples of unhealthy relationships in ultra-conservative religious communities and in some cultures. The one commonality though is that they are unhealthy. Even though I don't understand why some people would want to be submissive, I do think there can be healthy D/s relationships if they are based on mutual respect and have give and take from both partners. As I stated before, I have no personal experience in the BDSM lifestyle or world so I cannot comment from a fully informed perspective, but I do get the impression from books that couples involved in BDSM activities have very specific times when both members of the couple are fully aware that all rules are in force and misbehavior can be punished. I also get the impression from books I've read that part of the Dom's role is care and protection. It's not all about having a slave at your beck and call. I think many abusive men just want a slave and don't want to put forth any effort to take care of another human in any capacity.

Yeah....I read the same thing into the books. I have said a few tims that many aspects of a D/s relationship are in no way problematic for me. For instance, I find the sensual spankings by hand kinda hot! Shesh....I wish I didn't think so, frankly. Blushing furiously here! I read one story where a female sub had done something...don't remember what...., and was to be punished. She was fairly new and had no idea what her punishment would be. Wound up that her Dom left her alone in the bedroom all night, and since she really hated being alone, she considered it pretty damn serious punishment. I have heard of withholding orgasisms as punishment. If all this stuff is consentual, hell ...you go girl! Have a blast! But, when the punishment involves being bent over a "horse" and beaten with a cane until you can't walk? Nope. That's abuse....to me...not trying to pass judgement here. But.....this is a real deal, Fae. Lawmakers are pretty articulate and well read people. They at least know what's going on in literature. If women actually consent to this, how the hell can they make it illegal? It may never be a problem that is recognized or acknowledged, but people are not unaware of these books....including 50 Shades....which I frickin' love......and are POTENTIALLY making it harder to legislate against some forms of behavior. The whole issue is about to make me nuts. But, no one can say that popular fiction doesn't effect the world. Uncle Tom's Cabin was a major playor in slavery issues. Silent Spring started the all-out conservation movement.....some people called that non-fiction but most of it has now been disproven. Are books like 50 Shade (Oh, my God....I loved this book!) goin to set back legislation against violence against women? I don't know, but I think it could.

There wasn't a single Republican vote for the Violence Against Women Act. Consequently, it failed. I sincerely doubt a single one of those legislators read 50 shades. Actually, I think they aren't well read. If they were, the banning of books in libraries wouldn't be limited to 50 Shades. I can't see LKH being in libraries, or Ward.

I will simply have to say I disagree with your argument that 50 Shades or other popular BDSM books will make it harder to take domestic violence seriously. There is all kinds of legislation or budget reduction that is doing more than 50 Shades ever could to put back women's safety in the US. California's domestic violence network has been completely gutted. As a result of Amendment 1 in NC women who aren't married can't claim domestic violence if they are beaten by their boyfriend as only a man and a woman who are married are a legal couple.

I understand that you, personally, see some aspects of D/s relationships as abuse. If the people in them do not that is their business alone. At this point the police would most likely arrest anyone who was caning a bound person. In CA if the man were the bound person he's still the one who would be arrested, most likely. It's almost a rule that men are arrested and removed from the scene at every domestic disturbance. It doesn't always make sense.

There is a lot about our legal system that doesn't make sense, period. Violence against women is just one of them. And, I know you disagree, and I hope you're right. I just see some bone-headed defense lawyer pulling out 50 Shades to defend his stupid, abuser client. If it happens? Remember I predicted it! Damn. I hope that never happens.

Well, I can imagine a lawyer attempting that, but I can also imagine him being laughed at for using popular fiction to attempt to exonerate his client. BDSM isn't new, this is just the first time it has really captured the zeitgeist. I think if people were going to use it as a defense someone would have pulled out De Sade's books by now. At least those are decently written classics.

Women's fiction has perpetuated awful myths about women's sexuality for decades. We either all wanted a rich husband and kids, or we all wanted to be kidnapped by a dashing rogue, or we all wanted to be high level HBIC type career women. They are all stereotypes that anyone can attempt to use to label women. Doesn't mean it isn't an entertaining read, but it would be foolish for anyone to try and put those tropes into the real world.

Okay. I give. You have totally out debated me today. Good job.

ETA: Enjoy the rest of your Memorial Day.

YES!!!!! And now I'm dancing.

Have a great day, 2shay.

ugh... I went out with friends for brekkie recently and they said lets do a book club. This is the book they want to read. Belle messaged me to say something about a first kiss, in the lift?? I havent started -- but she is lovng it

2shay wrote:

Fae---What you're saying isn't wrong. I am not disagreeing with you about a woman's right to seek and find her own sexuality. It should be a given. What I am saying is that there are legal issues to be considered and the objectivity of legislators and courts. It is a very slippery slope. And, by the way, it isn't just about rape. It is also about physical abuse that doesn't include sexual activity. Do I BLAME the women...personally....who enjoy being beaten? Well, obviously I don't understand it. I also don't understand why women continually return to abusive husbands/boyfriends. The difference, I know, is in the men. A responsible Dom knows when to quit....usually. If it was a constant there would be no need for things like safewords. There are no safewords for women in abusive situations, and you can bet your butt that abusers don't understand "no". But how do the courts know the difference? They can't. So many abused women eventually take some or all of the blame on themselves....."I shouldn't have made him mad"...."I shouldn't have said that". Well, they obviously don't know the rules of a D/s relationship. A good sub does what they are told, when they are told and can get "punished" for a raised eyebrow. So.....I guess a whole lot of abused women need lessons from practicing submissives on how to avoid getting the crap beat out of them. We will never figure it out through the legal system. So....the next step is.....School For Submissive Behaviour, or How To Avoid Pissing Off The Asshole In Your Life. Or, a public school for Doms. How To Make Your Woman Behave To Your Exact Standards! Oh.....wait. We already have those schools, don't we. I believe they are a part of virtually every major religion! Helpmates.....there you go. Set women back about 100 years. Yep....I still think I have issues. I don't like submissive women. Whether submissive by accident or intent. They are enablers until we reach a point in society where we are all truly equal. We aren't there yet, and in the meantime, women have to stand together. Or not.

Ok FIRST... remind me never to debate Fae ; thankfully on this I'm in complete agreement with everything she's said.
I'm trying to see your point Shay but I just dont see the connection. Except for maybe with the occasional lawyer trying to defend his client as others have done by blaming some form of mass media (e.g. violent movies/video games) but ultimately it is seen for what it is an excuse; each individual is responsible for their own actions and no book/movie/game is justification for any sort of abusive behavior... its a ridiculous theory. And I think its unfortunate Shay that you believe an abused woman is comparable to a sexually submissive woman. Like Fae said a healthy BDSM relationship is not about the Dom beating/punishing the sub (at least not regularly) its all about control. I think your confusing the behavior of a Domme in a BDSM scenario with the depicted dominant behavior of an abusive man/husband. There really not the same at all in my opinion: an abusive man abuses/beats usually during fits of rage and usually as a coping mechanism for their own insecurities. A Dom doesn't start randomly going into fits of rage and starts "punishing" his sub that's not what its about; thats why there is usually structure set and rules established beforehand. Do "punishments" happen yes, although probably not as often as you think and not as severe; although different people have different pain threshholds so as stated thats why there is safe wording. In an abusive relationship there are NO rules and the abuser is just like Fae said an Asshole and unfortunately the woman is...... lost.

2shay wrote:

I agree, but they do exist. Here at home, our Mexican and Menonite population is pretty big. Those women have no voice in their LIVES! Period. Total male dominance. Many, not all, are abused on a regular basis. And they ARE beaten.......the "disciplining of wives". They aren't allowed to vote or have any voice in the raising of their children. One of the religious leaders of the Menonite community is the farm manager for one of my major customers. They are VERY well aware of what goes on and are trying to change things, but it's slow. John was OFFENDED almost beyond belief when our commissioner was let off on minor charges because it set a terrible example for his people. John has also told me that the "Americanizing" of their women is the main problem. Before they came to Texas the women.....John's words....minded their husbands better. All on purely religious grounds, women must submit to the will of their husbands in all things. It makes me want to pull my fuckin' hair out. We see it here every damn day. Men who were raised in Mexico are even worse. Oh, and our commissioner is just one generation removed from Mexico. More cultural with them than religious.

Ok where to start..... my knee jerk reaction would be to completly dismiss your claim of Mexican/Latino men being "dominant"/abusive; but that wouldn't be honest either, so I'm going to try and be objective. My only suggestion Shay, would be to be careful how you state these claims and generalizations of an overly simplified judgement of an entire culture. I'm Latina (Colombian and Spanish), I've grown up with many different latino nationalities-Colombian, Ecuadorian, Puerto Rican, Dominican, Salvadorean and more recently Mexican. I agree within the Latino community there is certainly a more male dominated/"machista" attitude ingrained in the culture. Although it is due greatly because of the heavy hand of Catholicism in these countries and the Bible scriptures on the subservient roles of women (but I digress). But latino men are not all machista and certainly not all are abusive!!! Some of the changes are obviously generational, some economic and as how it happened here education and opportunity. My husband was raised in Mexico (came here at the age of 20) and he is one of the most noble, sweet caring and generous man I ever met. My hubby's father was abusive to his mother and that apparently thankfully impacted him in such a way to denounce any abusive behavior towards women because he saw his mothers suffering and fortunately has broken the vicious cycle of abuse. We've had innumerable discussions on machismo especially in Mexico and unfortunately there is abusive behavior more prevalent in the more indigenous populations of Mexicans because they come from the rural economically depressed areas and have little to no education and alcoholism is very widespread; of course that is no excuse just the reality. But it is absolutely changing just at a much slower pace than it has here....

Wow, I missed a lot. The discussion was very thought provoking.

Well, I am not discussing this any more. My opinion stands. Sabby, if you want to state your opinion, do so. Addressing your comments specifically to me, in the form of an argument, is pointless. Also, more than half the people I love are of Mexican descent. Been sick recently. My doctor, Dr. Ogeda, spent as much time at my house growing up as he did his own. He came to my house Saturday night to check on me. I don't need a lecture on Mexican culture. I live it every day. My 40 plus year partner is of Mexican descent. Fortunately, they are, for the most part, extremely well educated and have long since moved themselves and their families away from some of the "cultural" and religious practices I pointed out earlier, and are just as disturbed by the violence toward women inherent in some segments of their shared background as I am.

Now, since there isn't a het BDSM thread.....

Surrender To Sanctuary by Leah St. James is free on Amazon until June 1st, I think. I am only 32% into the book, and you guys would have to read at least this far to realize how totally stoked I am about this book. It's an FBI investigation. A young woman washes ashore, dead. There are obvious signs of torture, leading the FBI team to investigate the very large BDSM club nearby. In the early part of the investigation, the owner of the club, and others, states flat out that they are following God's law! No idea where this is going. The FBI team, a man and a woman, are going into the club undercover. I am just happy that a writer has already nailed this!

Oh, and I actually post a few places where we also discuss 50 Shades and other things. Some of those places have several hundred posters. I doubt that I could stand up and hold my opinion so easily if not for the fact that, on other sites, my opinion reflects the majority. Lots of women out there consider female submissives.....warped, at least. Traitors at worst.

Hey, 50 Shades is back in FL libraries! personally, I don't think they should be able to censor what adults read. At all. However, libraries are in no way required to purchase the books I want. In an era of budget cuts I say THANK YOU to FL libraries!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/29/50-shades-of-grey-florida-library_n_1552094.html?ref=books&ir=Books

Surrender To Sanctuary

This book was free. Free is WAY over priced, in this case. The book actually started out pretty good. It went through a whole lot of these two FBI agents having to learn about the whole BDSM lifestyle from a long time married couple...who were pretty damn sweet, by the way. Anyway, the local BDSM club...which the married couple belong to.....is being used as a recruiting station for women looking for new "Masters". They are then sold at auction. Murder is what brought in the FBI. Gaaaa.....long story short......turns out the female FBI agent was raised in a super secret cult where all the women are naked all the time and the whole community practices BDSM. She helped set up the whole investigation after the murder to keep law enforcement from accidentally discovering their very secret and well hidden compound......hello....satellites up there!...! The girls in this religious (yep, religious cult) are given to a Master at age 16 to be indoctrinated in the proper ways of true submission, then a husband is chosen for them when they turn 18. Gaaaa.....sounds so much like the LDS compound that got busted in Eldorado, Tx. a few years ago. In fairness, this book didn't seem to try to twist things either way to make you like or dislike the depicted "lifestyle". But honest to gosh, whether you like or don't like the whole concept of submission, I can't even imagine anyone ever approving of giving a sixteen year old girl to an older man in order to teach her to submit properly. Gag. Annndddd........the damn book was really well written and pretty interesting most of the way through. I've told most of the story, though, so there is no need to "buy" your free copy. Way over priced.

Uuuummm I wasn't trying to be argumentative (not really); and I'm sorry if I offended you Shay that absolutely wasn't my intent. I apparently got the wrong impression from your initial statement about Mexican men/culture, so felt the need to speak in their defense. But am glad to hear that we actually are in fact in agreement... at least I think we are. I mean they cant be that bad anyway they invented TEQUILA and Guacamole.... absolutely golden in my book!!!

The whole banning of 50 shades was RIDICULOUS ; I go to the library all the time (in FL) and they have without a doubt more smexy books than what 50 provides. I'm assuming it was for the media attention because it is utter nonsense to censor adult literature

I have not picked this book up yet, but.......the hubby has! (He saw it in so many newspaper articles and got curious about all the hype.)

He'll read, then say stuff like "Oh. He just showed her the toy room!" or "Here we go, his eyes are sparkling." Then he'll chuckle and go back to the book. I'm not sure his amusement is what the author was shooting for! But hey, he's enjoying the book. Maybe that should worry me. LOL